Angry African on the Loose

14 responses so far ↓

• macey // April 30, 2008 at 2:05 pm

  I consider myself an “independent thinker”. With respect to mainsteam media, internet, etc. , it’s a valuable tool in information gathering. With respect to choosing which presidential candidate you support, I beleive that one should consider (1) whether or not that canditates past, present and or campaign policies and beliefs line up with your on beliefs and aspirations (2)whether or not their personal beliefs and or attitudes and values line up with your own. (3) think independently in dealing with facts versus allowing MSM to dictate you decisions with propaganda and subliminal manipulations.

  In reference to the presidential candidates, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have very similar polices as for as their campaign. Hillary has old baggage as for as things that came up in the past. No one really talks about it becasue they believe her supporters are solid, given that they already knew about her negatives when they decided to vote for her. A lot of Obama supporters are not as solid, given some or much younger and new to politics. Barack has no “old baggage”, so non-supporters try to associate as much negative as they can by connecting him with people and situations that he has “associated himself with”. The bigger problem with Obama is that non- of his “sound” supporters who have known him for years, have made significant efforts to bring into the MSM the great good that he is known for, specifically in the Chicago area. In contrast to HClinton, Barack does not have enough “independent thinkers”; those who push, and push the positives of Barack’s past. Obama goes to great lengths to mention his past work, but the question is “where are the people who most identify with this and why are these various groups and organizations not speaking up and speaking out? This is one reason why people don’t see any soundness in Obama’s slogan of CHANGE. “Change What”?and How will you do it?, is what they are asking. If people could see in MSM more of Obama’s positive accomplishments, how he set goals in those communities or helped reach goals set by others in those communities, then they could have a vision of how he would be able to provide and promote the kind of Change he is talking about in his campaign for president.

  Challenge: Illinois Supporters, speak out about the positive good of Sen. Obama. You’re the voice that can make a difference.

• biznookidunk // April 30, 2008 at 2:21 pm

  You posted this on a thread regarding Obama on Pajamas Media. You made the following statement.

  —I get the sense that many people support McCain and Hillary because they don’t like the other option. Does that say something about them? That they are more driven by dislike and hatred than an actual position? Maybe it is because they feel they have no option. There is no alternative for them. But it is sad though. Sad that they can’t mobilize around anything other than what they are against. I hear many Republicans say, “McCain. I hate him, but he is better than the other two.” Sad. Just sad.—

  Personally I am voting for McCain because other, more attractive candidates have withdrawn for various reasons. What is sad is that in spite of the 4 or 5 candidates who I would have preferred to McCain, nobody the Democrats have left are even close to what I want out of a candidate while McCain holds enough water for me to be comfortable with my choice. The issue isn’t a dislike for Obama as a “person”, the issue is dislike for the policies he suggests through his voting record and the advisers he has hired.

  If you want to know what I specifically despise about Obama is that his political advisers, his church, his pastor, his various mentors when growing up, his father and his wife all view the world antithetically to myself. Their view of America’s history is not my view. Their take on the various human interactions in America is not my take. Their vision of America’s role in the world is not my vision. Their hope for America’s future is not my hope. So, I will vote for someone whose view, take, vision, hope and audacity better represents mine then Obama’s does.

  The whole premise of your comment is weak. You assume that a significant number of the folk supporting McCain “hate” him but only less then they hate Obama. Even if hate is too strong a word, the fact is that no candidate will be perfect for everyone. They just have to be good enough.

  I’m not going to convince you that Obama is bad for America. I am pleased that you cannot vote so I really don’t need to make the effort. Someone like yourself, someone whose fundamental loyalties and political leanings are where they are, will not find value in my arguments. But, remember that every time you post a comment and link to some conservative blog, you are suffering from the same disadvantage. The difference being, in November, our voice will matter.

• Keven Bennett // April 30, 2008 at 3:55 pm

  Obama’s political situation is more like a new store opening up in an old neighborhood offering something different.

  Conservatives like the places they’ve always patronized, and many other Americans like what Hillary has to offer.

  My view is that both Hillary and McCain, in their own ways, represent the past. You see it in their political tactics, their inability to think outside the current economic box, and their support for America’s current foreign policy approach.

  I disagree with the individual above, and his commentary is indicative of the exclusionary attitude that many conservatives seem to suffer from.

  Either way, kudos for going out onto the battlefield to post on conservative blogs.

  You may notice, while you are there, a very strange dichotomy - their posts behind their moderators can get quite vile, intolerant to say the least, bordering on racial and/or other types of hatred, yet, they claim innocence when posting elsewhere.

  My perception of this is that behind the walls of a fortress, who one mingles with and what one says speaks far louder then their otherwise “formal” behavior outside the confines of their castles.

  The Reverand Wright is a firefly in direct sunlight when compared to the rantings of some of these individuals. Even those who don’t conduct themselves that way are hard pressed to explain why they don’t shut their own compatriots down when they partake of their intolerances and hatreds.

  It doesn’t make sense, but it does make for an interesting dichotomy, to say the least. I would even call it hypocracy.

  I am hoping you will be able to vote in November, and if you were to assume citizenship here, all Americans should welcome you. After all, there is no political “litmus test” for citizenship, and they know that.

  Only a conservative would conditionally welcome you based on your political persuasions - and it speaks volumes about their perceptions of fellow Americans, our Constitution, and how we should live our lives.

• macey // April 30, 2008 at 4:41 pm

  Keven,

  I agree whole heartedly.

  biznookidunk comment is an example of what people do when they can’t think independently and they are offended when others have the ability to do so.

  angryafrican posted a comment on this site:

  http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obamas-campaign-gets-a-do-over/#comment-33985

  it’s funny that biznookidunk did not post his comment on that site but followed angryafrican to this site to make his comment here.

  I am wondering why he appears to be so insecure.

• biznookidunk // April 30, 2008 at 7:30 pm

  @Keven Bennett

  “Conservatives like the places they’ve always patronized, and many other Americans like what Hillary has to offer.”

  Personally, I’ve lived in Germany, England, San Diego, Portland, LA, NYC, Santa Fe and two completely unrelated parts of China (different dialects, different food, different culture). The Conservatives I know are well traveled, well read, clear in their ability to express themselves, diverse in their faith, caring, open-minded and well educated. Most of us like to try new foods, see art from various cultures and from many eras, we like high quality music and are always craving a new musician, a new piece, a new mode, a new idea, a new spice, a new spot. I don’t know what experience you have had with Conservatives but from your blanket statement, no wonder you can condescend so to our views.

  “I disagree with the individual above, and his commentary is indicative of the exclusionary attitude that many conservatives seem to suffer from.”

  I’m curious, what was exclusionary in my comments? Where did I suggest that anyone’s politics aught to be a litmus test against their citizenship. I would be pleased that anyone blinded by the Obama firefly would vote, with no regard to any other fact then how poorly he would lead this country, how little his politics have any good sense, how meek his patriotism, and how weak his grasp of America’s diversity.

  You Mr Bennett, are also a compatriot and I could no sooner shut you up then anyone else. There is senseless bigotry aplenty on both the Left and the Right. The basic principles of today’s Right is more compassionate, diverse, sensible and vigorous. You don’t judge a group by their loonies unless, of course, their loonies are their leaders. Can it be that many Americans have a problem with Obama because he shares politics with unrepentant terrorists and racist anti-American leaders of major congregations? Can it be that many Americans find Obama and Clinton equally unappealing because they do not believe in growing the government? Can it be that the policies which Obama and Clinton have made into their platforms are just as unappealing as the apparent character of each? I know plenty of Conservatives who would gladly vote for a Condy Rice or a Colin Powell and have had to defend Clearance Thomas when discussing politics with Leftists. For every Conservative I know, as well as most who I care to read, the issue isn’t about black or white, Christian or Atheist, war or peace, male or female. The issue is what tends to be better for America. I read Obama’s intended policies, read his book, listened to his speeches, and see who his advisers are. This is why I think he is a poor choice for President, not because I represent the past, not because I am exclusionary, and not because I am bigoted.

  Obama, Clinton, McCain, Angry African, and Keven Bennett are all free to discuss their views and I cannot, nor would I, shut any of them up. I do, on the other hand, reserve the right to judge people on what they say, what they do and how their actions and words reflect on what sort of job they would do as President of the US.

  As for Obama being anything new… study Carter and you’ll see much of the same policies, politics, and method to power. I suspect we’d see the same incompetence.

• Keven Bennett // April 30, 2008 at 11:21 pm

  biznookidunk:

  Here it is. The comment:

  “I am pleased that you cannot vote so I really don’t need to make the effort.”

  If you had actually read my commentary, you would have seen that I did NOT finger you as
  “…vile, intolerant to say the least, bordering on racial and/or other types of hatred”. Your defensiveness preceeds you…

  I said clearly:

  “…some of these individuals. Even those who don’t conduct themselves that way are hard pressed to explain why…”

  I’ve made it clear that many conservatives are not bigots and it seems that Macey, who also may be conservative, was astute enough to note that I didn’t tar ALL conservatives that way.

  Thanks, Macey!

  The point being is that my point about [some] conservatives’ behavior behind those maderaters is true.

  Your immediate reaction is to without even a shred of reasoning, dismiss anyone who doesn’t share your viewpoint. Note Macey’s much more civil discussion. She doesn’t like Obama particularly much and you see I’m not trashing her?

  Have you noticed?

  As far as Clarence Thomas is concerned, you can keep him close to your heart if you want. I don’t. For insight on Black Republicans [again, some] consider Alan Keyes’ “itineracy” and how it might appear in the Black community.

  Also, it might do you an enormous amount of good to really try to put on that empathizer thingie most of us are equipped with and try to see if you can detect what portions of the conservative message are unacceptable to the Black community.

  Keep in mind while you are thinking about these things in a real exercise of thought, keep in mind also that astonishingly enough, the conservative viewpoint is held by a much larger percentage of Black voters than the 9% you got in 2004.

  Think HARD on it, biznookidunk, for therein lies the key to that electorate…

• Keven Bennett // April 30, 2008 at 11:37 pm

  Thanks, Macey!

  I’m glad to see that you, unlike biznookidunk, saw that I didn’t say that all conservatives were bigots.

  As for biznookidunk, here is your exclusionary statement:

  “I am pleased that you cannot vote so I really don’t need to make the effort.”

  As for your tirade, your defensiveness is showing. I quote what I said and what you missed:

  “Even those who don’t conduct themselves that way are hard pressed to explain why …”

  The statement about what goes on behind the moderators on conservative bb’s is sadly very true, despite your attempts to tar me with catogorizing all conservatives as bigots.

  I leave everyone concerned to see how, on Hannity’s blog, a death threat (ostensably a “suicide suggestion”!) was left on that website for over 40 hours. Such behavior on conservative blogs is pretty typical, and my descriptive language is in no way an error.

  As far as Obama is concerned, I like him for many other reasons besides those renedered here.

  For you, innured as you seem to be that Republicans are as “colorblind” as you claim, I invite you to do the following:

  Look critically at Republican candidates in the recent past. Have they engaged in behavior that might not be acceptable in the Black community? Do they have ties to their own “Reverand Wrights”? What has been the conduct of many of their mouthpeices?

  While you do this, note that many Black voters are conservatives and comprise much more that that 9% your party garnered in 2004. Is there something wrong with the Republican message?

  One of the things you can’t do if you are truly as “colorblind” as you claim is to dismiss this particular demographic. If you guys could claim half of it, you probably could win in November. Without them, there is a good chance McCain won’t.

  As an added task, when trying to percieve just how [some] Black Republicans are percieved in the Black community, think of the “itineracy” of Alan Keyes…

• Keven Bennett // April 30, 2008 at 11:44 pm

  Macey:

  I’m reminded of when the shoe was on the other foot. In the ’90s, the Republicans lambasted Democrats for doing nothing but voicing their opinions about what THEY were against.

• biznookidunk // May 1, 2008 at 1:58 am

  @Macey,
  I have seen your comments on PJM and on this site and seeing that you have used and reused the word “Independent Thinker” I am in a position to ask you what you mean by that. If I were to take you as an example of independent thinker, with no knowledge of any other example, I would think of independent thought being quite similar to incomplete thought, or even unspecific thought, or maybe tangent driven thought.

  As an example we have the following comment on my choice of posting venues.

  “it’s funny that biznookidunk did not post his comment on that site but followed angryafrican to this site to make his comment here.

  I am wondering why he appears to be so insecure.”

  I suppose you considered the possibility that I am very confident in my thinking and my ability to express myself. Perhaps so much so that I am willing to leave the comfortable confines of a blog in which 9 out of the ten commentators would simply agree with mine. But then that would make no sense seeing that I think like the pack. I am an unwashed bison in the prehistoric herd. I could not be coming to a site which tends towards ideas contrary to mine, as I am not independent in my thought. Ergo, I came to the site out of insecurity. Perhaps I was too afraid of all the agreement I would find on PMJ, so my insecurity drove me to this obscure, left leaning site where I can be properly criticized by the independent light of your mind.

  Macey, why don’t you try an exercize which you perhaps didn’t learn in Independent Thinking 101. When you make a point, back it up with relevant and proportional facts.

  Example #1, spiritual mentor>political endorser
  Example #2,
  “all Muslims have a mandate to kill Christians and Jews,” to which Hagee replied, “Well, the Quran teaches that. Yes, it teaches that very clearly.”= True
  American Government created AIDS to kill off blacks in America = False

  The point being, have a point.

• Keven Bennett // May 1, 2008 at 8:25 am

  biznookidunk:

  And all this time, you didn’t notice Hagee is McCains “Reverand Wright”. Yup. He’s a REAL expert on the Quran…

  Perhaps one of our muslim readers would post?

  Not all muslims want to do that. Othewise, we would have 3,000,000 suicide bombers in our midst.

  Well, I guess painting you a bigot isn’t that far off the mark.

  Gotcha!

  On a more general note of biological experimentation on Blacks:

  True!

  There were THREE instances, TWO in the US, one in the prison system, one in the military, and one in Africa.

  Historical events can lead to theories that might be considered outlandish by you and me, but those events are a real as Rosewood.

  Gotcha again. You just hugged one of those “Reverand Wrights” quite closely, biznookidunk, AND showed the same classic bigotry that you didn’t show before.

  NOW is the time to complain about me calling you a bigot.

  You are.

• Jen // May 1, 2008 at 10:40 am

  I think this is fast becoming a redundant argument, much like the whole Wright issue.

  Treat others like you would like to be treated. I have republican friends, they are decent human beings who just don’t like to pay taxes more than any other issue. Well maybe guns, but I think I believe in the 2nd amendment, too. Especially with the threat of Matial Law that may happen here.

  As a great man once said “Can’t we all just get along?”

• biznookidunk // May 1, 2008 at 1:25 pm

  @KB

  I noticed an attempt to paint Hagee as being the same as Wright. Obama sat in Wright’s church and listened to his hateful sermons for decades, McCain did not do the same with Hagee. Obama gave tens of thousands of dollars to this hateful church, McCain did not do the same with Hagee’s church. Obama was married by this hateful man, McCain was not married by Hagee. Obama called Wright his spiritual mentor, McCain said nothing of the sort about Hagee. Obama put Wright on his election committee, McCain did not do so with Hagee. McCain distanced himself from Hagee’s unsavory rhetoric even as he took his endorsement. It took decades for Obama to distance himself from Wright, although never his church. Have I provided enough examples of how insignificant Hagee’s role is in McCain’s life as compared to what role it is that Wright, his church, his ideology, and his politics play on Obama?

  I brought up Hagee on this site for Macey as these were quotes she posted on the other site. It was a too nuanced version of the above paragraph.

  It appears you are an expert at bigotry, much more so then Hagee is of Islam. There is no question that the Koran calls for the conversion or death of infidels. Its spelled out in black and white. The two infidel groups who are rather better protected then other infidels are the people of the book, Jews and Christians. Jews and Christians can remain as such if they pay into a protection racket called dhimi, under which they give up any rights to physically protect themselves from Muslims, give up right of way to Muslims and their legal recourse against Muslims is practically null. That and they have to pay a special tax in order to have that right to life. The Wahabi sect of Islam takes this very seriously, and as you may well know, the Wahabi sect is that which controls Saudi Arabia and finances 90% of all the mosques being built in Europe and the US.

  Let me ask you, is it bigoted to believe that, or is it bigoted to state that? What part of that particular statement was untrue? Now, if I were making up laws, extrapolating from no fact and simply accusing people of something for which I can find no credible data, then I might be called a bigot. Like, if I said that Jews were responsible for 9/11, or if I were to say that the US government invented AIDS in order to commit genocide against blacks. Or if I gave money to people who said such things, included them in my projects, never publicly demonstrated disillusionment with said statements until my run for Presidency began to look precarious, then I can see why you would call me a bigot. Otherwise, I’d say your bigot radar needs retuning.

  I don’t know anything about the prison experiment you are talking about. The army experiment with syphilis was horrible. The fact that the army decided not to treat men for syphilis they contracted all on their own was an evil event. So was the experimentations using LSD on soldiers, as well as all the radioactivity experiments done with soldiers during the various nuclear tests. The army F***ed up. You do realize that LSD and the radioactivity experiments were on white soldiers? Perhaps these experiments weren’t so race biased as you want to suggest. Oh, and when the civilian portion of military oversight found out about all these experiments, these issues were addressed and not repeated.

  Ask our host, Angry African, about Rosewood. You had an incident in the 1920’s where a small black community suffered a massacre by a neighboring white community, not the US government. AA, you might want to chime in and tell Keven what blacks have been doing to blacks in Africa in this decade alone. The American situation in the last forty years is wildly different then what it was like in the 1920’s. We addressed the Rosewoods of our past and now things are fair. When you have to go back decades to find a few isolated incidents in which to blame the US for today’s bigotry in the black community, then you have the problem, not the US.

  Lastly
  {“…some of these individuals. Even those who don’t conduct themselves that way are hard pressed to explain why…”

  I’ve made it clear that many conservatives are not bigots and it seems that Macey, who also may be conservative, was astute enough to note that I didn’t tar ALL conservatives that way. }

  You began your comment with, “Conservatives like the places they’ve always patronized, and many other Americans like what Hillary has to offer.”, which seems to me like a broad brush stroking if I ever saw one. From there you went to comment on what it is like on “the battlefield” of conservative blogs. You also lend insight regarding “some of these individuals” as if you wouldn’t find this anywhere but the conservative wild animal parks of discourse that you’ve visited. What was the purpose of this comment if not to both condescend towards conservatives for this phenomenon and insinuate that it would be hard pressed to it find anywhere else? That would be like telling someone that Persians eat rice. Now if you really wanted to be useful you might tell us that the Persians like to put oil on the bottom of the cooking pot so that when the rice is done, they can flip the rice over onto a plate and have a hard, crunchy, slightly burnt and delicious layer of rice on top that is considered a delicacy. Also, try the rice that is cooked with currants, almonds and a little chicken stock. But, simply saying that rice is eaten by Persians is not particularly insightful. Having had many looks on the HuffPo and DailyKos, you can find a daily dose of bigoted and hateful remarks, conspiracy theories a plenty, calls to murder elected officials and condescension towards Conservatives of the very kind you express.

  I can tell you exactly why you’ll find these sorts of comments on PJM, HuffPo, Townhall and the DailyKos. Its because that is what mediocre thinkers do. There are strong thinkers on both the left and the right but most of us posting comments about them are merely parroting the phrases that make us feel whatever it is we need to feel. This is not unique to conservatives and it would be disingenuous of you to pretend that you didn’t intend to suggest that this is a phenomenon unique to the right.

  I’m not complaining that you are calling be a bigot. I am telling you I am not. My anger, my hatred, and my discourse with opposing views is very proportionate to the threat posed.

• Keven Bennett // May 2, 2008 at 10:11 am

  On Hagee, these are fine lines. I don’t think they are relevant, and Hagee is every bit as hateful as Wright. In addition, McCain has refused to denounce him in any way, unlike Obama.

  Talk about “distance”…

  As for the issue of knowing what bigotry is, yes, I can safely say I am. I’ve seen your type before and you display of it isn’t in any way new to me.

  Your commentary on the Quran is pointless. There are passages in the Bible that are equally uncompromising, and it’s clear from your comment that this consequently is the reason for all muslims being ‘the way they are’ and the core reason for your approval of the conflation of the antiterrorism activity with a war between societies.

  THAT’s bigotry with a big B. You want to expand the whole thing into a war between religions? Keep it. As for how Christians are treated in the ME, I know that too. As for treating ours in the same way, you can keep that too. Your bigotry is with Muslims.

  On the last comment, I made that comment with reference to patronizing stores, with the ’stores’ being figuritavely the locations where individuals of like political persuasions gather. To ‘patronize’ in American English means to ‘go to’ or to ‘paticipate with’.

  Customers ‘patronize’ stores. I ‘patronized’ my local Albersons supermarket yesterday.

  And btw, you HAVN’T done any of the tasks I set you. You know, about how the Black community here might look at the putative “colorblindness” you claim. Refer to the three tasks above and you will figure out why 30,000,000 Black Americans can’t all be wrong…

  As for my comments about some conservatives behavior behind their moderated bb’s (most non-conservative bb’s don’t have moderators) stands.

  I’ve seen a wide selection of both. Your anger and hatred need to be directed at trying to do something better for our country than suggesting we institutionalize some of your bigotry into anti-terrorism activities and convert it into a war between societies.

  If you really want a sixth Crusade, go back to 1180 AD and start one!

• angryafrican // May 4, 2008 at 9:17 pm

  @Macey - You are right. People need to speak out in support of his past. But the voters should also go and look at the policies he proposes - not just the speeches he makes. Details are available. And people should judge that.

  @Biznookidunk - You mention that the vision Obama has for America, the role of America in the world, his view of the past etc - are not what you see. What do you see? Because it is very unclear what America McCain talks about. I have yet to hear what he has to say about his vision of America. Not a criticism - but he is unclear about his view of the past or the future. We had our exchanges on the other issues so I’ll leave it at that.

  @Jen - You are right, why can’t we just get along. Maybe another way of looking at it is asking why can’t we talk about politics without feeling it is a personal attack. We do get along. Just don’t agree on political positions.

  @Keven - Mate, as always. A pleasure and honor to have you reading my blog.

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